November 29, 2010
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SCAM ALERT: MUST-READ Camera Buyer Advice!
(Updated November 2010)
...It's that time of year again, folks! I only wish I could have gotten this blog post re-published before black friday, but halfway through "Cyber Monday" will have to do. Please feel free to leave a comment, share this blog post, etc. etc. My personal bit.ly link for this blog post is: http://bit.ly/cameratalk-scamalert in case you'd like to use that.Since this post was last updated as recently as May, I don't have much new to add. But, just off the top of my head, I googled "Nikon D7000" and came up with a handful of online camera stores, and especially "price shopper" websites, claiming some ridiculously low prices. If you don't care to read the post below, here's the short version- Save yourself a lot of trouble, shop at a reputable dealer such as B&H, Adorama, or Amazon etc... (And if you use those links when you shop, it does indeed help me out a little, without charging you any extra.)
(UPDATED MAY 2010)
(updated Aug 2008)
Those of you who have been long-time subscribers to this blog will know that every now and then, I bring to the public's attention the "brooklyn scam group". It's not a fun topic, but I feel that it's very necessary. SO many people out there are buying digital cameras and equipment, many their very first digital camera ever, and they don't realize how widespread online scamming is.
The largest group, out of brooklyn, (in the 718 area code and 112xx zip code, I believe) is sort of a fly-by-night group, churning out new websites every few months, basically doing the same scam business under a different name, until word gets out that they are a shady company. As soon as one online store front gets shut down, another one (or two) MORE pop up...
I first encountered them when I ALMOST purchased my first D70 from a company called "Digital Liquidators"... Since then, the list has grown:
Broadway Photo - bwayphoto.com, broadwayphoto.com
(They say they are under new management, but their tech support still shows at least one 718 area code number.Digital Liquidators - digitalliquidators.com
A&M Photo World - amphotoworld.com
The Camera Pros - thecamerapros.com
USA Photo Nation - usaphotonation.com
J&K Cameras - (eBay storefront, shut down)
Genius Camera - geniuscamera.com
Express Camera - expresscamera.com
Best Price Camera - bestpricecamera.com
RainbowTronics - rainbowtronics.com
Royal Camera - royalcamera.com
Added Aug 2008:
Sonic Cameras - soniccameras.com
Added May 2010:
Total Pro Digital - www.totalprodigital.com
42nd St Photo - www.42photo.com
Primo Cameras - www.primocameras.com
US1 Cameras - www.us1photo.com
Thunder Cameras - www.thundercameras.com
Fumfie - www.fumfie.com
...And these are just the ones I can think up OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, or by a quick google search. There are MANY others! (And don't hesitate to mention some more if you know of any, and I'll add them to the list when I re-post this blog entry, every year or so...)
You may notice that a good number of these sites have been shut down, and most ALL of them when googled will generate results that are 90% complaints. Often the complaints out-rank the actual website itself! NOT good!!!
Broadway Photo, the place where I just saw the Nikon D300 for $1381, is the "ringleader" and they do business practically in broad daylight. Even though the very second link right underneath them on google reports that they are a scam group... HAH! (They've registered with google or something, to force their link up to the top...)
Basically, here's the bottom line(s):
Legally, these companies are legit. (this one overlord company, that is...) I'm sure if you took them to court, they could figure out a way to appear within the law. After all, accidents do happen, and sometimes you "accidentally" get shipped and billed for a bunch of stuff you didn't order, or charged $500 for shipping, or your order gets mysteriously canceled altogether. So, they're quasi-legal. But they'll still get you on the phone and try to sell you a bunch of junk, or charge you extra for things like the battery & charger that should come WITH the camera. And then they may accidentally charge your credit card for way too much, or claim that, oh, I dunno, read some of the sad stories yourself...
Yeah. Unscrupulous, shady, dishonest, shameless, evil, etc. etc.
So, what can you do? Well, it's pretty simple...
Never, NEVER, NEVER buy a camera simply by googling the name of the camera and then clicking on the lowest price, that is just suicide. As I like to say- you'll get more excitement out of lighting your money on fire.
Also, NEVER trust those "price shopper" sites to only shop legit stores. In fact on many price shopper sites, the ENTIRE first page of results will consist of scam companies. For example I just used "lowpricedigital.com" to search for the Nikon D300, and Broadway comes up even with a "customer satisfaction award". The rest of the results, including the $999 D300 from "1wayphoto.com", are all part of the scam group.
Then, if you are seriously bent on saving money on your electronics purchase, here's how to identify a scam group:
Well first of all, use resellerratings.com. They're a legit review site for online stores. Click "store ratings" and search for the company you're thinking of buying from. If there are a ton of negative reviews, case closed. If there are ZERO reviews, or just one or two, then that means the company is SO new they haven't been around long enough to get reviewed. Not a good sign, in my opinion, and I'd walk away right then.
[EDIT: Lately I've seen these scam companies make MASSIVE efforts to spam resellerratings with fake reviews. So many fake reviews that they even make the 1-star reviews hard to find. Just another reason to WALK AWAY, and buy from a reputable dealer...]
Secondly, if you place an order online and they immediately ask you to "call and confirm your order", that is red flag #1!!! They will invariably attempt to sell you on a bunch of exorbitantly priced extras, in fact they'll even try and convince you that your camera doesn't come with a battery or charger, and that you need to buy those things separately! Red flag #2.
Thirdly is the "overpriced extras" I mentioned - you don't need to place an order to see the overpriced junk they try and push. Just type in "CF card" into any of these websites search engines, and you'll see a bunch of generic, un-labeled memory cards pop up that cost 5-10 TIMES what they ought to, even from the most reliable brands. Red flag #3. [EDIT: Recently I have noticed a different trend: Some of these resellers don't even list accessories at ALL. Probably to hid their overpriced bait-and-switch joke of a business model. I guarantee you that if you bought something from them, they'd call you up and try to sell you the overpriced stuff just the same...]
Fourth, if they put up some silly customer testimonials on their page, I just roll my eyes. "there are a lot of scam groups out there, but *I* trust this store..." Yeah right! A legit outfit shouldn't have to rely on cheesy customer testimonials to get business!
Oh, and also, if they have a BUNCH of "seals" on their front page that say they are hacker safe, and credit-card safe / registered / verified etc, then that also CAN be a bad sign. They're over-compensating for something. Also, I've noticed that all the scam sites have a generic, "tech support" face on their website somewhere. Probably to instill trust in buyers by *looking* nice and cozy.
Here's my advice:
Buy your camera from Adorama, B&H, or Amazon. That's the simple answer. When I search for "Adorama" in my email receipts folder, twenty different invoices come up, and I remember each of those purchases being perfectly smooth... I've spent thousands there, and thousands at B&H and Amazon as well.. Each purchase has gone smoothly and arrived on time. Really, the discussion should end right there, with that statistic...
You MIGHT be able to save a FEW dollars from some of the other legit online stores. Or of course there's always your local walk-in stores... I've bought from Sigma4less.com a couple times, and they're very friendly, helpful people, if you need a lens or something that Adorama doesn't have in stock...
A list of stores that I trust, have shopped at before, and highly recommend:
Adorama - www.adorama.com
B&H - www.bhphotovideo.com
Amazon - Amazon
A list of stores that also look legit, but I can't speak for them personally:
Roberts Imaging - www.robertsimaging.com
Abe's of Maine - www.abesofmaine.com
J&R Music & Computer -
BuyDig -
Crutchfield -
OneCall -
...But, tried-and-true, just don't google the name of the camera and click the lowest number. Oh and by the way, KEH.com is a great safe place to buy used gear. Some items, like camera straps and batteries, I buy in store because I need them immediately. I also buy my memory cards in-store sometimes, because you can always trust them to carry legit stuff. Ebay and Amazon for example, since they allow 3rd-party sellers, may have FAKE Sandisk cards. STAY AWAY from either of those stores when buying memory cards...
Now a rule of thumb: If you're finding prices that are more than 5% lower than "the big three", then it's too good to be true, 99% of the time. You gotta ask yourself a question: "Do I feel lucky?"
The next question you should ask, if you're JUST saving 5% from a semi-legit retailer- is 5% REALLY worth the risk of becoming yet another "customer dissatisfaction" statistic?
I dunno about you, but I'll take peace of mind, thank you very much...
Take care,
=Matt=- PS: Support my addiction to giving free advice - Donate via Paypal, or by shopping at B&H.
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Comments (24)
It prices sound too good to be true -- it probably is.
AMEN! I came close to purchasing my D300 from one of these scam artists but realized it was to good to be true and bought it locally. Thanks for the advice on the "good guys". I always laugh when I see Abes of Maine because they aren't in Maine
.
great advice to anyone who is going to be purchasing any photography equipment. i totally agree with all points listed
@henrwhy - words to live by not just for camera shopping.
Thanks for this really informative entry.
I like Craigslist myself. HAHAHA
Yeah, Sigma4Less is great for people like me who buy third party lenses =]
Try using this site to look up online retailers. It will give you a rating plus user comments.
http://www.resellerratings.com
You'll see Broadway Photo gets a 1.18 rating out of 10 and it lists several companies they are connected with.
Great advice! Regarding your 'safe' list though... I actually placed an order with Abes of Maine once for a large piece of audio-visual equipment last year, having seen their ~8.5 rating on reseller ratings. But they gave me the phone-call confirmation/upsell routine (as soon as the phone rang I knew what they were doing) and wouldn't let me scramble out of it. Very forceful and rude, even angry and yelling at me. When I went back to resellerratings, although there were many positive comments I had originally read, the negative comments were still too plentiful, and downright scary. I realized they were probably true, and I actually called my bank to deny any charges from them, and they told me that if it's really a shady company, I'm better off getting a new card number reissued altogether, so I did! Ugh. Better worth the trouble than losing $1k and an identity.
@David - Yes, David, I trust ResellerRatings, and recommend them whenever I can!
=Matt=
@szetoness - Well, there you have it. I know many people have purchased safely through Abe's, but like I said, I ONLY recommend Adorama and B&H for anyone who is looking to get a no-nonsense deal. (And even then, you MUST make sure you're buying a USA piece of equipment, since they do sell Grey market stuff! If either Adorama or B&H would suck it up and just STOP offering Grey Market equipment, I would recommend them outright!)
=Matt=
Delighted to see Adorama Camera listed as a recommended supplier, however, I would like to clarify the position re the 'grey market', (at least as far as Adorama is concerned). 'Grey market' refers to products imported directly into the US, rather than through the manufacturer's authorized agents / distributors. It's perfectly legal to directly import & sell these products in the US; the term "grey market" was coined by manufacturer's authorized distributors who wanted to discourage consumers from buying these (less costly) goods.
With no factory authorized middle-man involved in the import of these products, costs are lower, so the price is lower to our customers. Many items which are in short supply or not imported at all by the manufacturer's authorized distributors are available in direct import.
There's no difference in the actual products. Occasionally manufacturers will name them differently for example the Olympus USA Digital Stylus Cameras are called Olympus MJU Cameras in Europe.
On 'Grey Market' products purchased from Adorama, we offer the same warranty as the USA warranted products carry for a period of one year.
The only difference is that you would need to ship it to Adorama for warranty service.
We always advertise direct import products as such, and absolutely do not try and fob customers off that they are anything but.
If you have any further queries regarding any aspect of Adorama Camera, please do not hesitate to contact me directly: helen.oster@adoramacamera.com
Sincerely
Helen Oster
Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador
helen.oster@adoramacamera.com
What really ticks me off is magazines such as SHUTTERBUG who keep on selling advertising to these scammer firms! They know they are crooks, but dont care as long as they pay for the ads! Broadway Camera has been advertising in SHUTTERBUG MAGAZINE for years, and Im sure they do ship out a item here and there but when you see an aitem you know sells everywhere for $1799, there is no way they can sell even Grey Market for $999 or less. Its buyer beware. the best thing to do is write the publishers of these magazines and tell them you will not be renewing your subscription to them because they are letting crooks USE THE MAG to rip people off of. maybe when they start loosing their subscribers they will sit up and listen.
Randy
uh yeah... i think i ordered my camera three times from that first list of sites, only to have the order 'cancelled' or 'out of stock for 6 months' each time. not cool. when i tried calling the other places to see what in the world was going on, they hung up. my camera finally came from b&h. thanks for sharing this info!
Folks who find your do-not-buy list interesting may also be interested in Don Wiss' "Brooklyn Storefronts" page.
Helen Oster's comments about "grey market" are worth noting. The product itself is the same, legit retailers offer their own warranties, and legit retailers make sure shoppers know in advance if an item is "grey market" so the customer can make his or her own informed choice.
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video
@Borelfoto - Randy, thanks for mentioning this OTHER atrocity... And yes, I have ceased my subscription to Outdoor Photographer, which also accepts advertising from these companies. In fact I think it was BECAUSE I saw the ad in a legit magazine that I felt it was safe to go through with the order!
I'm not subscribing to any magazine that takes money from these companies.
Thanks for your comment,=Matt=
@HelenOster - @bandhphoto -
Thank you for the helpful input, Henry and Helen! learned a lot about "GRAY"... I've spent thousands at both Adorama and B&H over the years, and I had no idea that these retailers carried their own 1-year warranty. You should link to that fact on every gray market equipment page!
http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=FAQ#Product%20Warranties:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/HelpCenter/WarrantiesRepair.jsp
There are the links to Adorama & B&H's warranty info pages. Indeed, both carry a 1-year warranty on gray market equipment.
One thing I have not gotten an official word on: I am told that Nikon / Canon will simply NOT TOUCH GRAY MARKET equipment, period, even if you are willing to pay for service. This leaves you to go and find a third-party (4th-party?) repair center, after the 1-year warranty period is over. Of course I'm sure legit third-party service centers guarantee their work, but it still sounds like a lot of work just to save a little money, if you ask me.
The reason I thought it would be a good idea to not offer gray equipment at all was because I disagree with the manufacturer's practice in general. The money saved is often laughably insignificant considering the total cost of the equipment, and the effort / money spent to obtain service in the long run is far more than people realize. So in trying to save $20 or something silly on a $1000 piece of professional equipment, they sacrifice ease-of-repair (and probably more money than what they saved in the first place) down the road... It just makes sense that if you're buying a high-end piece of professional gear, you should also afford yourself the dang warranty!
I do understand that it should be the consumer's decision, and it would be problematic for the retailer to try and make that decision FOR the customer. So I'll just stick with imploring people to buy USA stuff... I have been rough on my gear for about 5 years now, and I have never had a piece of equipment that didn't need to go in for at least a "tune up" at one point or another.
Take care,
=Matt=
Nikon USA has had a policy for a few years now that they will never knowingly work on a "grey market" Nikon product, in or out of warranty and have said you cannot pay them parts+labor for non-warranty work, On the other hand, Canon USA has long had a policy that if the owner provides dated proof of purchase they will work on a "grey market" Canon product.
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video
Thank you - I've placed an cancelled 3 orders in the past 2 months from companies that do EXACTLY what you stated. I thought I was just getting unlucky - I didn't realized they were acting like whack-a-mole operations!.
Bought a "US model" D700 from the crooks at Broadway. I paid extra for the US model when they claimed the web price was for grey market. Nevertheless, they shipped a grey market. They also charged $115 for overnight shipping and $110 for "insurance". They lied. I bought a US model locally paying full price since I needed the camera for a trip to Africa the following day. I have contested the credit card charges and intend to see that they pay the difference as well as for my time and the reshipping including "insurance" of $110. If more people did this with these crooks they would be out of business.
@CameraTalk - @HelenOster - @bandhphoto - This is really useful information. Thank you for your time!
Back in the early 2000's I fell victim to those Too Good To Be True sites as well. Adorama and B&H are my go to sites as well now. Literally saved well over 1k with no CA sales tax and free shipping. Returns are easy too. I also like Amazon for accessories and lighting equip, as long as it's free ship and comes directly from Amazon. The 30-45 minute (one way) drive it takes me to get to my local Samy's and Calumet is such a waste of time. Save time and money outsource your shopping!
I remember you posting an article like this quite a while ago. Man, it sickens me. I'm glad you're trying to keep us all informed.
Ok just as a personal comment to this - you added 42photo.com however i have personally ordered a camera from them before... got the camera, new in box, nothing shady. They also have excellent reviews on the site you listed for reviews (http://www.resellerratings.com/store/42nd_Street_Photo) and they have amazing reviews on ebay as well. So - not sure what experience you had ordering with them, however, they are actually, selling cameras and have actually low prices sometimes and my past experience and those from the internet in general are pretty great actually.
This being said, do your research. I found this article before i could actually dig up my receipt for my old camera to make sure it was, in fact 42photo.com i ordered from but this was a pretty scathing article to read that actually i found was kind of misleading from my own personal experience.
Overall, like i said, do your research on internet stores and sites. Always make sure they have a phone number listed (and try the number to make sure they answer like you'd expect). Always make sure they have a verifiable physical address and if necessary check out the BBB or whatever sources you feel are important (angies list etc) - call the state or town make sure their business is in good standing. I recommend all this because yes, occasionally you'll find a listing that is several hundred less for the camera you're looking for - does this mean pay full price instead because you think it seems scammy? No... This means do your research. Call them - make sure your camera comes with all of the things the manufacturer says are in the box. etc.
Hope this helps