July 11, 2008

  • INPUT: Desktop Computer Systems…

    So, what are people’s opinions on desktop (tower) computer systems?

    Is a Mac Pro REALLY worth the $5,000+ total price tag? Apple lists the starting price at an already eye-popping $2800, and that’s only with 2 gigs of RAM, one 320 gig HD, and no display. etc. Every time I configure the machine that I feel would allow me to work comfortably, concerning both speed and capacity, I quickly pass five grand. (Then I quickly close that browser window in disgust…)

    Multiple geek friends of mine have showed me how easy it is to build a custom PC system that is even FASTER, with more capacity, for less than half as much.

    So, this forces me to asses WHY I have a Mac in the first place. The reasons that I come up with are surprisingly trivial…

    1.) I like the way my macbook LOOKS. It is simply timeless. I don’t understand why ALL other laptop makers feel the need to differentiate their product and add this or that little curve, line, shape, finish, etc. etc. It just doesn’t work for me. By trying to stand out and change the way EVERY new laptop looks, they have created a sea in which any single laptop will be lost. Show me a PC laptop that looks better than a macbook, let alone a macbook pro… The only thing that comes to mind is the Thinkpad, and those still don’t come close to looking sexier than a macbook…

    2.) I like the simplistic interface. You see, I’m the exact opposite of brilliant when it comes to software interfaces. I like the simple Apple OS X interface. PC’s may be capable of all the same things, like “time machine” and “spotlight” and the “dashboard”, but Apple has simply IDIOT-PFOOFED these things, and that is what I need.

    3.) I like fact that ALL hardware is hand-picked by Apple to work flawlessly together. I don’t have the time to get into my PC nightmare experiences with “drivers”, whatever the heck those are. Ugh.

    4.) I like the safety. I’ll be honest- I’m really dumb when it comes to things like firewalls, anti-virus, spyware-sweeping, etc. etc. This is the main reason I bought a Mac- again, no time for the stories, but suffice it to say I’m really ignorant and I’ve trashed my PC twice.

    So anyways, I guess these reasons aren’t THAT big. If it were a matter of saving thousands of dollars, I could live with a PC. Oh wait, it IS a matter of thousands.

    So, I’m strongly considering just building a PC desktop tower, to take over the duties as my main imaging workhorse. (Yes, I currently do ALL my editing from a 13″ laptop. And I somehow manage to deliver images on time, with proper color. I know, I’m ghetto…)

    And I’m no slouch when it comes to building a machine. I know how to slap on my anti-static wristband and install a CPU / HD / RAM stick. Heck, I’ve even replaced the RAM and HD in my macbook! (I should probably replace the CPU “logic board” too, sooner or later.

    I guess I COULD attempt the impossible, to custom-build a mac. You can buy towers, you can buy everything you need. But the available parts would be a lot more limited.

    But then again, that’s what I like about Apple products. All the hardware just goes together.

    But then again, many many pros out there do just fine with PC machines, machines that could run circles around the average Mac Pro tower…

    So, what’s the vote? What would YOU do? “Burn” money on a mac pro tower? Or just bite the bullet, learn Vista, and build a PC?

    Couple specs concerning my ideal machine:

    ~ Dual twenty-something inch monitors. Probably cost the same as a single Apple 30″! Samsung? Viewsonic?

    ~ One HD for OS and apps. 300 gigs probably fine.

    ~ Additional HD with a fully-bootable backup of OS / app HD.

    ~ SATA storage HD, 500 gigs. (For images and other files…)

    ~ SATA storage HD backup, 500 gigs. (Auto-backup of HD with images, exact duplicate)

    ~ SATA external HD backup, 1000 gigs. (For auto-backup of desktop AND Laptop, or is that a bad idea?)

    ~ 4 core CPU, preferably ~3 GHZ.

    ~ 4-8 gigs RAM.

    ~ BEST graphics card possible, without getting ridiculous. (I’ll be doing imaging, RAW processing, but not anything like HD video, nor high-frame-rate gaming…)

    ~ Double optical drives.

    …Surely this PC could be built for under $2,500?

    Take care,
    =Matt=

    [EDIT]

    Hate to say it guys, but having done a bunch of work on my PC lately, I am turned off yet again. I really don’t like all the little apps and things that you have to deal with. There is just SO much third party stuff out there, and THAT seems to be what ends up giving me the most trouble. All these apps get themselves into the “open at startup” folder every time I download an update, they get into my taskbar and add all these useless little icons and buttons to the left AND right corners of the taskbar, it’s just freaking annoying. Honestly, Logitec, do you REALLY have to install software and create a taskbar icon (or two) just so I can use your keyboard? (And seriously, the dang thing warns me that my mouse batteries are dead MONHTS before they actually are because I use rechargeables, it’s really annoying…) And what the heck is RAR? ZIP wasn’t good enough? Right when you FINALLY didn’t have to open a stupid application just to unzip a file, you gotta use apps to compress / un-compress things again?

    I’m sick of third parties trying to stick their fork in my tomato.

    With my Mac, I have a grand total of maybe SIX different companies going into my computer: Apple, (who for all intents and purposes we’re going to say “makes” ALL hardware…) Adobe, Mozilla, Showit, NeoOffice, and a couple “hardly ever use ‘em” apps for recovering lost images, FTP, etc.

    And that’s more than enough already.

    I dunno, I just don’t know if I can ever put THAT much into a PC again. Too complicated. I know PC’s are better, they can do more, they are more customizable, parts are easier to come by, etc. etc. But I really don’t WANT that. I just want to edit images. I LOVE SIMPLICITY.

    =Matt=

Comments (27)

  • The proc you want is already $1000…LoL

  • Hey, this is a little bit off topic but I was looking for recommendations on affordable subcompact fully manual digital cameras.  I’ve been searching around and nothing has caught my eye.  Thanks.

  • Apple’s are a bit spendy, and building your own machine is always cheaper.  That being said, Apple way overcharges for some components, especially RAM.  For RAM, you’re better off getting the lowest amount possible to save money, then buying it at crucial.com.  (For an 8 GB configuration, 4x2GB on Apple: $1500.  On Crucial: $400)  Same might go for hard drives.

  • maybe you should try hackingtosh although that will probably give you more stress

  • Matt — If you are seriously thinking about building your own PC, we should sit down and I will offer all the help that you need.

  • @soundz -  Yes, that is the input that I get from most anyone “in the know” on Mac versus PC.  A major point of owning a Mac is the the fact that it’s trouble-free and the hardware is all meant to work perfectly together.  Bootlegging a Mac machine could be even more trouble than simply building a PC with carefully selected parts…

    =Matt=

  • @Lexybeast -  Yes, Alex, when it comes to RAM and HD’s, I’m no idiot, I know my way around NewEgg and I can pick up reliable, name-brand hardware and install it myself no problem.  Spending an extra $500 to go from 2 gigs of RAM to 4 gigs?  NO THANK YOU!

    =Matt=

  • @MrChairmanMao - I don’t know much about P&S cameras, really.  I do know that Ricoh seems to be making some decent P&S cameras, most all with manual control and most all with a 28mm wide end.

    Personally, I’m going to forego manaul control in favor of indestructibility, with the Olympus 1030 SW.  
    =Matt=

  • The most cost prohibitive thing in your configuration is probably your processor which will run about $550 for a 2.8 GHz or so.  I have a pretty conservative CPU at 1.86 GHz and it’s still respectably fast; I get a backpacking trip’s worth of images processed in about 15-20 minutes.

  • Based on your list, I briefly checked Newegg:

    Dual Samsung 22″ wides: $240 ea = $480
    Seagate 320GB HDD: $70 ea = $140
    Seagate 500GB HDD: $85 ea = $170 (dude are you a little paranoid here)
    Maxtor 1TB external HDD: $240
    Antec case + power supply: $100
    Motherboard: $110
    NVidia GeForce 8600: $110 (probably best bang for your buck for anything short of video or serious gaming)
    Keyboard + mouse = $20
    Windows Vista 64 bit = $90
    4 GB  RAM = $70
    Dual optical drives = $60
    Cardreader = $7
    Midrange but respectable processor $180

    Comes out to close to $1800.  A good 1/3 of your cost is in hard drives.  What I like to do for PCs is build something midrange but with a future-proof motherboard, so in 2 years I can throw in another $180 CPU that will cost me $1000 today, and add that second video card for $150 that will cost me $300 today, and maybe top off the RAM for $100.  That way I have a computer that will last me 5+ years for under $2k.

  • @Skunkabilly - Yeah, when I say ~3 GHZ, I pretty much mean 2.anything…  But my desktop PC is currently 1.8-something (only one core though) and it’s definitely not fast enough.  My laptop’s core-2 duo 2.0 GHZ barely cuts the mustard when it comes to burning through 4-8 gigs of photos at once in BR CS3.  (And I mean, AT ONCE.  The way BR works, I can select a whole gig of photos if I want and edit them all simultaneously.  Yeah, a little CPU intensive, heheh…)

    So, I’d be willing to spend a little extra on CPU power. Maybe less than the $550 or $1000 that you and Victor were quoting, but I’d like to do 2.something quad-core if I can.
    =Matt=

  • @CameraTalk - No, your desktop processor is like below 1 ghz. I know cause I checked recently. Get at least two ghz for a processor. With all the photos you upload, it may make your life a whole lot easier in the future.

  • @Skunkabilly - BTW skunk, thanks for the Newegg list. Now that give’s me something to go off of. 

  • @DrFantastic - Specs say I’m running a 1.09 GHZ AMD Athlon XP, and I seem to remember it bragging that it clocks as fast as an Intel 1.5 or 1.8 or so.  But I dunno.  And it’s got 1.5 gigs of RAM.

    I think it’s mostly my CPU and graphics that are taxed under my current workflow setup. 2-4 gigs of RAM is more than enough.
    I’d be willing to build a 2-gig (RAM) machine if it had a 2.something GHz CPU and a very decent GeForce GPU…  (But I’d still want a MOBO that has 4 RAM slots, of course.  Like Skunk said, gotta future-proof your MOBO!)
    =Matt=

  • I know you’re not a gamer but once a year, PC Gamer comes out with the PC Building Bible.  It’s kind of expensive ($8-10) but it’s REALLY good and will bring you up to speed with all things PC hardware.  I was out of the PC building loop for 5+ years, but that one issue brought me all up to speed.

  • yeah, the price difference is the only thing keeping me on PC now…mostly.  It’s pretty much impossible to get any mac for the $300ish that I paid for this.

    And I really like Skunkabily’s newegg breakdown.  Also, if you’re willing to look around more you can do a lot better than newegg in a lot of cases.  I got my 22″ lcd for about $170, for example.

    Now if apple would only just sell their OS to anyone, that would be pretty awesome, even if the hardware would be a little more limited than windows.

    And good luck on your decision. 
    ~ Jon

  • @DarkShadowFoR - 

    $300-400 is what I built my current PC for, not counting the monitor.  And that was like, 5+ years ago, when it was a decently fast machine…  
    At this point in my career, I’m ready to invest in a machine that leaves nothing to be desired when it comes to speed, capacity, and being “compatible with the future”…
    =Matt=

  • Yeah, I wasn’t recommending you buy a $300 PC, I was just comparing what you can build with what you can buy.

    ~ Jon

  • http://www.xanga.com/stonedman/636879929/item.html

    i built my rig last october, so i bet you can get a bunch of the parts for a little cheaper now.   You don’t necessarily need to buy the same exact parts I did, especially since you’re willing to spend almost 2x more (although the cost of HDDs alone would probably offset some of that extra budget), but I think it’s a good starting off point for an up-to-date build. The 2.4 GHz quad core (Q6600) is only $210 on newegg now.  The most expensive singular piece of hardware I bought was my video card, but you definitely don’t need the 8800GTS 320MB if you’re not gaming.  As someone commented earlier, an 8600 is acceptable, although at around $140 on newegg, the 8800GT 512MB video card I would say is the better technology-bang for buck.  Since you are running dual monitors, you should get at least a 1,000 watt power supply as it will cause your video card to draw more power to display to them.  You may want to consider getting a WD raptor (10,000rpm) as your main drive if you have a little extra cash as boots and executions off of it are noticeably faster than 7200rpm drives (my startup time is 30 seconds- from pushing the on button to being able to click on the windows start button; almost 4x faster than my pentium4 2.8 GHz processor laptop, which sports a 7200rpm HD).  You don’t really need a sound card unless you do any sound/video editing or gaming either.  Many integrated MOBO sound cards are more than capable enough for casual listening of music and an external sound card only saves me around 3-5 frames per second while gaming (aka it doesn’t save your processor from that much work anyway).  My sound card helps mostly for digital audio manipulation.

    As for third party apps, it can’t be helped since you’re basically putting a whole slew of third party hardware parts together into one box.  But you can keep them down by watching what you are installing and ONLY installing the drivers for your hardware.  At startup, I run only 28 processes (including a virus scanner) and I have a cornucopia of photo editing, sound editing, video editing, torrent, compression, and cartography/GIS programs installed.  If you don’t need things to start at startup, you can turn them off from your msconfig startup menu.  If you’re even more anal about your resources (like me) you can even go through your windows services menu and disable a number of those processes (like remote desktop sharing, messenger, fast user switching capability etc etc) unless, of course, you actually DO use those windows services.  Just make sure you don’t disable anything that windows actually requires to work.

  • @stonedman - OH my, wow, um, that is one SEXY machine…  Wow I think you win the “build Matt a PC” contest…

    My mac laptop takes less than 60 seconds to startup, and that is NOW considering the HD is almost completely full.  Whenever I get a new HD and do a clean re-install,  it starts up lightning quick.  But that’s just how macs are I guess.  30 sec. for a PC is more than enough of course.  And yeah I do highly consider a WD raptor for my OS and apps.  Photoshop CS3 Bridge is just NOT nice to a system when you’re working with gigs of photos at once.

    Thanks for the advice.  What I really need to do right now is play around with Vista on a machine that is owned by a competent PC-er who knows what they’re doing, and get convinced that it’s not that bad.  We’ll see, I guess, we’ll see!

    =Matt=

  • rar is actually a lot better than zip

  • If you don’t want to take the time to find and buy all the parts, put them all together, then troubleshoot if necessary, then don’t go with building your own PC. Macs are more expensive, but the hardware is all matched extremely well as is the software — which is why a MacBook Pro can handily beat out an equivalent or better Windows notebook in benchmark tests. Macs also typically utilize more RAM than do PCs. Word of advice: if you go with a PC, make sure you get the 64-bit version of Windows so that you can take advantage of more than 4GB of RAM. With a quad-core processor and 4-8GB of matched, dual-channel RAM, your only bottlenecks should be your hard drives (which should be SATA). If you get a 10,000rpm hard drive, use that to install Windows and your most-used applications like Adobe CS3. Stonedman has good advice about the graphics card and power supply.

    I ultimately hope you’re happy with your decision. Thanks for letting people like me enjoy your blog.

  • I’m working on that exact decision right now. Thanks for bringing the topic up! These comments have helped more than a lot of my research!

  • Another option worth looking into is http://www.ibuypower.com/

    Whereas years ago it was possible to save huge amounts building your own system it’s not so much the case today. I know several people who like you know how to assemble PCs but didn’t want to deal with the headaches sometimes associated with doing so, so they ordered a pre-built system from there and were happy with it. I priced a system on there a while back against the cost of building an equal specced machine from newegg and ibuypower was about $60 more for a ~$1k system.

  • Also, the 1,000 watt power supply comment is bogus. I run dual monitors and I’ve never had any problems with my 350W. I have a UPS battery backup that tells me my power consumption and it’s typically around 160W. My system is fairly similar to the one stonedman listed.

  • @tkr2099 - Hey thanks for the input.  I’ll shop ibuypower indeed, I’ve added them to my bookmarks right next to NewEgg hehe…

    And, what UPS do you have?  I’m just running one of the cheap APC models…
    Take care,=Matt=

  • This is mine..

    http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=162959&cm_ven=COMPARISON%20SHOPPING&cm_cat=GOOGLE&cm_pla=DATAFEED-%3EPRODUCTS&cm_ite=1%20PRODUCT&cm_keycode=4&om_keycode=4

    It was a Christmas present, I probably would not have spent that much on one myself since I never do anything mission critical anyway. I could see it being worth it for someone like you for whom it could potentially save a lot of work doing wedding photos, etc. APC is good though, we have an APC UPS from 1995 that’s still going strong.

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